Is QF Giving Up On PER?

submitted by weebie

Singapore will increase it's PER service to 24 weekly later on this year. With QF using two A330 services and a Jetstar service is it fair to say that QF is giving up on Perth? Malaysian will be doing something similar to Singapore soon and China Southern enter the market in November with Ethiad not far behind them.

all comments

1. IndianicWorld

One could ask, is QF giving up on Australia? Overall, SYD is their main focus in this country, but their sights are broader than these shores.

As for PER, it's still a relatively small, isolated market, but a wealthy one. I don't think QF will look to expand it too much unfortunately, and there will be mote opportunities for foreign carriers to increase or start service. That will be the case in many other Australian markets in the coming years also.

Btw, Malaysian services KL, not Singapore  

2. thegeek

No. They are maintaining a higher market share out of PER than on any other market that I am aware of.

3. AusA380

Look at how many QF international flight ex ADL?

4. EK413

Quoting AusA380 (Reply 3):

Look at how many QF international flight ex ADL?

Have a look at the bigger picture, check out how many european flights they will have next year... 3 daily, 1 FRA and 2 LHR... QF certainly giving up alright...

EK413

5. Lufthansa

Strange really to think Los Angeles will get more flights than London does.

6. sydscott

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 5):

Strange really to think Los Angeles will get more flights than London does.

It merely highlights the dynamics of the two markets and where in 1 QF has a powerful position vs the other where QF has to beat a plethora of other carriers. What will be interesting to see is what happens once the 3 year lease to BA is up on the LHR slots and whether QF can get into LHR from PVG at that time.

7. qf002

There's a difference between giving up and making money. If they fill 2 daily A333s to SIN with high yielding pax then they're going to make more money than SQ filling 3 daily A333s with low yielding pax. I think it's grossly unjustified to say that 'they're giving up', when all that is happening is other carriers are adding flights. The only route QF have cut recently is the NRT one (and that's apparently earthquake/nuclear meltdown related, and is only 'suspended'), and they now have a daily transcontinental 744 to SYD and more MEL and BNE flights with the A333.

[Edited 2011-09-02 23:08:47]

8. tayser

MEL hasn't had a direct NRT flight for at least 2-3 years.

9. qf002

Quoting tayser (Reply 8):

MEL hasn't had a direct NRT flight for at least 2-3 years.

Sorry I meant flying to PER, not NRT - will edit to make that clear.

10. Ben175

They're not 'giving up' on PER so to speak, but they're definitely leaving us with the bare minimum, looking at an international perspective. For example, I wish QF would have mainline PER-DPS and PER-CGK services so there's a J product on these routes. Obviously NRT isn't coming back soon and probably never will. Services to JNB are long gone with the SA codeshare. I wouldn't see flights to China or India for 5-10 years.

Oh well, I personally prefer to see a diverse range of airlines reaping the benefits over QF anyways.

11. ISTGRU

Both QR and EY have mentioned Perth in the past and I guess at least one of the two will get there in the next few years. EK have been double daily into PER for years now and they do a lot of high yielding connecting traffic to some exotic ports in Africa as a result of the mining industry based in Perth. I also know a number of people who fly PER - DXB - JFK one stop service over PER - SYD - LAX - JFK. Block time is marginally longer, however its an easy ride with only one stop and no funky connections in SYD and LAX.

SQ has always had a bit presence at PER as has, but to a lesser extent, MH.

12. flythere

Quoting ISTGRU (Reply 11):

I also know a number of people who fly PER - DXB - JFK one stop service over PER - SYD - LAX - JFK. Block time is marginally longer, however its an easy ride with only one stop and no funky connections in SYD and LAX.

Shortest would be PER-HKG-JFK on CX, which is only 1.5% longer than PER-JFK on Great Circle. passing DXB incur a 7.1% detour.

13. aerorobnz

One could argue they haven't had PER to 'give up' for many years. They have long since focused on SYD and the East Coast.

It still baffles me that QF don't offer AKL-PER. That is a very important market I think. They could market it as a PER-AKL-LAX connection using QF marketing flights as well.

Quoting Ben175 (Reply 10):

Oh well, I personally prefer to see a diverse range of airlines reaping the benefits over QF anyways.

Exactly. PER has gained many carriers in that respect.

14. qf002

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 13):

It still baffles me that QF don't offer AKL-PER. That is a very important market I think. They could market it as a PER-AKL-LAX connection using QF marketing flights as well.

Agreed 100%. They could run a red eye PER-AKL, continuing from AKL on the name number and keep the AKL departure time basically the same as they are today... And an Internationally configured A332 would blow NZ out of the water (at least for J pax). Plus the extra pax could potentially mean that they could justify a return of 747s (at least some days) to the route.

15. Lufthansa

Put it would of course mean less customers going to LAX via the other cities and the one in particular that I would worry about is BNE, as VA is now several times a week BNE-LAX... would any such flight cause QF to have to downgrade BNE and let virgin take important corporate business there... corporate business they're unlikely to gain in AKL?

16. Lufthansa

Acutally now I think about it, Now united has feed from CO, this might be a good route to go via the NRT hub now QF has pulled the plug. You could have PER-NRT, for japanese tourist, mining interest and easy access to Korea and northern China, And then connections through to LAX, SFO, New York, Chicago, Seattle, IAH, and of Course newark and washington DC. They wouldn't need that bigger aircraft, a 767 should do it. maybe 4 or 5 times a week. Maybe a 764? They could rotate it throught NRT to CO Micronesia.

17. Ben175

That's a great idea, actually! Would love to see an American carrier in the West.

By the way, if SQ really is going 24 x weekly, what is the new flight time for the 4th service?

18. Lufthansa

CO's 767-400s seat 235.
So if you could get say 100 Japanese tourists Say another 30 people connecting onto korea and northern china

then you'd only need about 100 people to continue onto the states. So if we split this up evenly between the US hubs (not realistic because some obviously have more international demand via asia then others but just to keep things simple) you would only need about 14 passengers going through to each US long haul hub.

you could offer HNL too of course but this seams a bit of a long way to do it.

My guess is east cost cities would probably be more competitive purely because they can be served one-stop vs a transfer at LAX if going via the australian east coast. But going to Seattle, ORD, IAH IAD and EWR plus the surrounding cities could work out significantly faster.

19. aaway

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 13):

It still baffles me that QF don't offer AKL-PER. That is a very important market I think. They could market it as a PER-AKL-LAX connection using QF marketing flights as well.

A couple of questions: (1) What characteristics do AKL and PER share that make that particular route a 'large' market? Also, (2) though a hypothetical PER-AKL-LAX might be well timed destined for LAX, would that same timimg be good for PER-AKL O & D traffic and v.v?

20. Docpepz

Quoting Ben175 (Reply 17):

By the way, if SQ really is going 24 x weekly, what is the new flight time for the 4th service?

SQ229 departs SIN at 0755 Arr PER 1315

SQ230 departs SIN at 1735 arr SIN 2250

Flight operates on Mon Tue and Sat with B772 Regional Configuration. F is sold as J, J is empty and Y is sold as Y. Since this is the aircraft with the old regional seats, it would be somewhat embarrassing to sell the J as normal J!!

21. Singapore%2520777

Quoting Docpepz (Reply 20):

F is sold as J, J is empty and Y is sold as Y. Since this is the aircraft with the old regional seats, it would be somewhat embarrassing to sell the J as normal J!!

Almost right, but I think J is sold as Y as well, making the config 12J/276Y. Lucky Y passengers get first dibs at the J cabin...

Although the product is really crap compared to the A333s they usually get.

22. yeogeo

Quoting EK413 (Reply 4):

check out how many european flights [QF] will have next year... 3 daily, 1 FRA and 2 LHR.

For a Philadelphia or San Diego-ish size city, along with all the non-Australian carriers, this seems like pretty descent coverage to me --ignoring all the other factors such as geography, and the propensity for Aussies to out-travel just about anyone  

Out of curiosity, at its zenith, what cities/frequencies did Qantas serve non-stop from Perth?

yeo

23. thegeek

Quoting aaway (Reply 19):

(2) though a hypothetical PER-AKL-LAX might be well timed destined for LAX, would that same timimg be good for PER-AKL O & D traffic and v.v?

Great question.

If you keep the current timings AKL-LAX, and assume 90 minutes on the ground in AKL, that makes PER-AKL 2:05am-11:35am and AKL-PER 9:40am-12:25pm.

OK heading west, but not nice heading east.

24. RyanairGuru

Quoting weebie (Thread starter):

Singapore will increase it's PER service to 24 weekly later on this year. With QF using two A330 services and a Jetstar service is it fair to say that QF is giving up on Perth?

Let's not loose sight of the fact that the same applies to BNE and ADL as well. SQ are 3 daily SIN-BNE, QF are 1 (+ the option of JQ via DRW). They are 3 weekly to ADL, SQ are daily. It's not that they're giving up on PER as much as they are giving up period

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 16):

Now united has feed from CO, this might be a good route to go via the NRT hub now QF has pulled the plug. You could have PER-NRT, for japanese tourist, mining interest and easy access to Korea and northern China, And then connections through to LAX, SFO, New York, Chicago, Seattle, IAH, and of Course newark and washington DC.

Nice idea. The 767 really wouldn't be a massive amount of capacity to try and fill. And according to gcmap.com PER-NRT-EWR is 130mi shorter than PER-HKG-EWR

Quoting thegeek (Reply 23):

If you keep the current timings AKL-LAX, and assume 90 minutes on the ground in AKL, that makes PER-AKL 2:05am-11:35am and AKL-PER 9:40am-12:25pm.

Hmm, if we were to make PER-AKL 23:45-09:15 (making it more palatable), and then have 90 minutes in AKL you would then have 11:45-04:10 which isn't exactly ideal. Maybe you could blow out the east-bound layover to 2h20m so that it arrives into LAX at 05:00.

25. aerorobnz

Quoting aaway (Reply 19):

A couple of questions: (1) What characteristics do AKL and PER share that make that particular route a 'large' market? Also, (2) though a hypothetical PER-AKL-LAX might be well timed destined for LAX, would that same timimg be good for PER-AKL O & D traffic and v.v?

What's wrong with a 0030 departure (airports the world over operate that late if there are no curfews) , and adjust the departure time to say 1230 out of AKL and you've got a reasonable transit, with no terminal transfers, a QF Club. Add into the mix a rerouted QF8 so the stop is AKL instead of BNE and you've got DFW as well. It would be possible to retime the LAX to suit an early morning departure from PER.

Due to no reciprocal arrangements between WA & NZ IRD all of NZs young men go there to make some money in the mines and not pay their child support back home, They both have sizeable SAF populations as well. It has a daily 763 which is always full.

26. SpinalTap

Quoting qf002 (Reply 9):

Quoting tayser (Reply 8):

MEL hasn't had a direct NRT flight for at least 2-3 years.

Sorry I meant flying to PER, not NRT - will edit to make that clear

No I flew PER-NRT-PER about this time last year. The flight was suspended 08-May-2011: https://www.qantas.com.au/agents/dyn/qf/policies/ComPolPerTyo300311.pdf

27. thegeek

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 25):

What's wrong with a 0030 departure

Maybe the arrival in LAX around 5am? Possibly it would be good to beat the rush there though.

28. Ben175

Does anyone know which lounge CZ will use? They are officially the first Skyteam airline serving PER.

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 25):

What's wrong with a 0030 departure (airports the world over operate that late if there are no curfews)

Exactly, 2200-0200 is one of the busiest time periods of the day for PER. Even a 1:15am departure isn't a significant problem.

29. EK413

Quoting yeogeo (Reply 22):

Valid question... hopefully one of our fellow a.netters can shared some light... My guess is none... Surely a PER-LHR could work...

EK413

[Edited 2011-09-03 19:43:19]

30. aerorobnz

Quoting thegeek (Reply 27):

Maybe the arrival in LAX around 5am? Possibly it would be good to beat the rush there though.

again, what difference does it make? It just means that you get where you're going faster. It opens up all the first round of departures ex LAX to the rest of the continent. All of the longhaul into AKL also arrives at 5am - remember that when you get somewhere you are never ever in that time zone so it doesn't matter.

31. jc2354

At one time, UA had traffic rights between AKL and Australia (MEL/SYD). Do they still have the rights, and, if so, could they transfer the MEL/SYD to Perth, or is that just opening up another can of worms?

32. gemuser

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 16):

Acutally now I think about it, Now united has feed from CO, this might be a good route to go via the NRT hub now QF has pulled the plug.

Would this comply with the CURRENT Japan/USA bi-lateral treaty? I know it has been liberalised and called "open skies" but I understand there are still restrictions.

It would comply with the current Australia/USA bi-lateral.

Gemuser

33. thegeek

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 30):

again, what difference does it make?

I think it does. It might be OK for people getting a further connection, but I would hate to get out of LAX airport at around 6am after a long flight in Y. Shops would be closed, it's a while before you can check in to your hotel, etc. You can't even go and see a movie. Might be OK if you are a local or going straight to see someone.

34. Lufthansa

Quoting gemuser (Reply 32):

Would this comply with the CURRENT Japan/USA bi-lateral treaty?

No idea, I know in the past indeed it was possible for NW or UAL (or PA earlier) to operate the flight between Australia and Japan and then continue onto america... not sure if they have given this up or not? They seem to still have their hub rights though.

35. thegeek

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 34):

No idea, I know in the past indeed it was possible for NW or UAL (or PA earlier) to operate the flight between Australia and Japan and then continue onto america... not sure if they have given this up or not? They seem to still have their hub rights though.

My memory is that the Japan-Australia leg had a restriction on the number of through passengers it was allowed to carry, and NW didn't enforce the restriction properly thus lost the rights after a small amount of dithering from the Australian authorities. But I could be wrong. I'm sure it was NW though.

36. carnoc

Quoting AusA380 (Reply 3):

Look at how many QF international flight ex ADL?

This reminds me that some years ago when Air NZ began operating international flights out of ADL, a lot of South Australians believed Qantas was absolutely hopeless "in terms of being truly Australian!"  

37. mariner

Quoting thegeek (Reply 35):

My memory is that the Japan-Australia leg had a restriction on the number of through passengers it was allowed to carry, and NW didn't enforce the restriction properly thus lost the rights after a small amount of dithering from the Australian authorities.

  

US originating passengers had to be more than 50% of the total load.

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/03/12/bu...ve-against-northwest-airlines.html

"Japan may take action against Northwest Airlines if the United States carrier continues to violate rules set by Tokyo for an extension of its New York-Osaka route to Sydney, Australia, a Transport Ministry official said yesterday.

In October 1991 Japan and Australia allowed Northwest Airlines to extend its New York-Osaka route to Sydney, provided that new passengers and cargo boarding in Osaka accounted for less than 50 percent of the total load. But between December 1992 and February 1993, passengers and cargo flying the second leg accounted for more than 70 percent of the total, the official said. "

mariner

38. Lufthansa

If that's the case, maybe it doesnt matter anymore given open skies between the USA and Australia. And these days, given the lack of service between australia and japan i would think the Australian government wouldn't have as bigger issue. It's not like QF or JAL are about to serve the route. through traffic to the USA would probably be the thing making it viable if it ever got up.

39. qf002

Quoting SpinalTap (Reply 26):

No I flew PER-NRT-PER about this time last year. The flight was suspended 08-May-2011:

You need to read my original post -- it was unclear, and sounded like QF were still flying MEL-NRT. tayser picked me up on this and I clarified (and edited my post) to make it clear that I was talking about flights across Australia...

Quoting thegeek (Reply 27):

Maybe the arrival in LAX around 5am? Possibly it would be good to beat the rush there though.

Connection to JFK is then compromised... PER and AKL pax would have an extra 90 minute wait, and it means QF has the aircraft on the ground in LAX (potentially costing them money) for an extra 90 minutes... Not to mention that nothing opens in LAX till mid-morning anyway.

40. Ben175

I wonder if DJ/VA is interested in tapping in to the lucrative PER-SIN route? A 738 easily has the legs, and it would compliment their services to DPS and HKT.

41. gemuser

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 38):

If that's the case, maybe it doesnt matter anymore given open skies between the USA and Australia.

It's not the Australian government that could be the problem it's the Japanese., Australia has signed an almost truly open skies agreement with the USA, but some people on here think the USA/Japan open skies is not a "true" open skies. I don't know, that's why I asked.

Gemuser

42. thegeek

Quoting Ben175 (Reply 40):

I wonder if DJ/VA is interested in tapping in to the lucrative PER-SIN route? A 738 easily has the legs, and it would compliment their services to DPS and HKT.

With no feed? I'd wonder if there was a point.

43. Ben175

Quoting thegeek (Reply 42):

With no feed? I'd wonder if there was a point.

That is true. PER-SIN is still a huge O&D/VFR route however.

44. qf002

Quoting Ben175 (Reply 40):

I wonder if DJ/VA is interested in tapping in to the lucrative PER-SIN route?

Quoting Ben175 (Reply 43):

That is true. PER-SIN is still a huge O&D/VFR route however.

They have their partnership with SQ to codeshare on... Why bother with 738s when you can send pax on one of many daily A333s with SQ's latest (and very good) product?

45. nzrich

Quoting aaway (Reply 19):

(1) What characteristics do AKL and PER share that make that particular route a 'large' market? Also,

Large amount of miners from NZ use this route

Also quite a big population of New Zealanders live in PER

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 25):

What's wrong with a 0030 departure (airports the world over operate that late if there are no curfews) , and adjust the departure time to say 1230 out of AKL and you've got a reasonable transit, with no terminal transfers, a QF Club.

Only thing is Air NZ has tried a early departure out of AKL to LAX and was not supported so was then dropped . I doubt QF would be able to make it work if NZ could not at that time .

46. Viscount724

Quoting jc2354 (Reply 31):

At one time, UA had traffic rights between AKL and Australia (MEL/SYD). Do they still have the rights

US-Australia and US-New Zealand are both Open Skies markets so there are no restrictions on 5th freedom rights, unless they wanted to operate to a 3rd country where the bilateral with that country would also have to permit 5th freedom rights.

47. aerorobnz

Quoting thegeek (Reply 33):

but I would hate to get out of LAX airport at around 6am after a long flight in Y

I will be arriving at LAX at that time in 2 days time, and going straight to my hotel without any issue, as I always do..

48. thegeek

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 47):

I will be arriving at LAX at that time in 2 days time, and going straight to my hotel without any issue, as I always do..

Ok, but I imagine that you are either a good customer, or paid extra to get such an early check in. They can't have anyone in the room the night before. Perhaps it would be money well spent.

49. jc2354

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 46):

US-Australia and US-New Zealand are both Open Skies markets so there are no restrictions on 5th freedom rights

Thanks Viscount!

I knew there were Open Skies, but didn't know that it simultaneously allowed 5th freedom travel. I guess it's time to dust off the Google, and do some searching.

Thanks, again.